This interview you are about to read originally appeared in Sahara reporters website.
Dr. Damages: Welcome to the show, my name is Dr. Damages. We are coming to you from the greatest city in the world, New York. We have a special guest today so we won’t waste time on monologue. He is the wealthiest pastor in Africa, if not the whole world. He is the founder of the Living Faith Church Worldwide, otherwise known as the Winners’ Chapel. His church is in more than 34 countries of the world. At the church’s headquarters in Canaanland is an auditorium called Faith Tabernacle. It can seat over 50,000 people. It’s one of the largest of its kind in the world. Please give a warm welcome to Bishop David Oyedepo.
Bishop Oyedepo: Thank you.
Dr. Damages: Welcome to the show, my name is Dr. Damages. We are coming to you from the greatest city in the world, New York. We have a special guest today so we won’t waste time on monologue. He is the wealthiest pastor in Africa, if not the whole world. He is the founder of the Living Faith Church Worldwide, otherwise known as the Winners’ Chapel. His church is in more than 34 countries of the world. At the church’s headquarters in Canaanland is an auditorium called Faith Tabernacle. It can seat over 50,000 people. It’s one of the largest of its kind in the world. Please give a warm welcome to Bishop David Oyedepo.
Bishop Oyedepo: Thank you.
Dr. Damages: Happy birthday to you, Bishop.
Bishop Oyedepo: Thank you so much.
Bishop Oyedepo: Thank you so much.
Dr. Damages: What an interesting time to be a pastor!
Bishop Oyedepo: Yes. Christians are being persecuted in China,
Iraq, Syria, Egypt and they have almost been wiped out in the North
East of Nigeria.
Dr. Damages: I was actually referring to what has been going on with pastors in Nigeria.
Dr. Damages: I was actually referring to what has been going on with pastors in Nigeria.
Bishop Oyedepo: Oh! To be a servant in the vineyard of the lord
comes with challenges.
Dr. Damages: Yes. So what is your take on the whole Prophet T.B.
Joshua’s hostel collapse?
Bishop Oyedepo: In Mathew 7:1 the holy book warned us: “Do not judge, or you, too, will be judged.”
Bishop Oyedepo: In Mathew 7:1 the holy book warned us: “Do not judge, or you, too, will be judged.”
Dr. Damages: I’m not asking you to Judge, Bishop. I want to know
your take on his theory that a strange aircraft brought down his
hostel killing over 118 people.
Bishop Oyedepo: In 1 Chronicles 16:22 the Holy Bible warned us, “do not touch my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm!”
Dr. Damages: I thought that admonition only applies to ordinary
people like me. Does it also apply to other anointed people like
you?
Bishop Oyedepo: It’s plain. Do not touch my anointed. It made no
exceptions.
Dr. Damages: Is that some sort of eternal immunity for the
anointed?
Bishop Oyedepo: Call it what you want. It’s what it is.
Dr. Damages: So, if I get anointed today I’ll automatically get immunity from every impunity?
Dr. Damages: So, if I get anointed today I’ll automatically get immunity from every impunity?
Bishop Oyedepo: Getting anointed is not like being a reporter. To
be a reporter you just wake up, pick up a tape recorder and hit the
road. These days you don't even have to be associated with a
newspaper. You just set up a blog for free. To be anointed, you
have to be called. And then someone who is anointed will place
his hands on you.
Dr. Damages: Going by that your description of a reporter, I
somehow feel that being a reporter is like being anointed. But I
may be wrong. So is that anointed process what grants you
unlimited immunity?
Bishop Oyedepo: Again, it is written… I did not write it. If you like,
call it whatever you want. You have your poetic license we have
our "do not touch" sign.
Dr. Damages: So when the fraternity of the anointed meet, do you
not discuss what is happening within the church and how the
activities of other anointed people like you impact the church?
Bishop Oyedepo: When you reporters meet, do you discuss what is
happening within the media and how the activities of other
reporters impact your profession?
Dr. Damages: Yes, we do. In fact, we just had a fierce discussion
about the bribe one of your fellow anointed men of God gave our
colleagues. One of our colleagues rejected the money and exposed
the audio of the anointed man of God offering bribe to reporters.
Our man went on to chide the reporters who took the bribe. Why
can’t other anointed like you discuss and possibly reprimand a
colleague you see as wayward?
Bishop Oyedepo: You know I don’t follow social media. You mean
that a man of God bribed reporters?
Dr. Damages: Yes. That’s part of the reason why I wanted to hear
your view on the state of the church in Nigeria vis-à-vis the
pastors.
Bishop Oyedepo: Are you sure that it wasn’t transport money that
he gave the reporters? Sometimes people confuse transport money
with bribe.
Dr. Damages: Do you give transport money to reporters?
Bishop Oyedepo: No. Not at all. I hardly meet with reporters. When
I do, during special occasions like my birthday, I just pray for
them. But how do you know it was not transport money?
Dr. Damages: If it was transport money he would not have
demanded to know what the reporters would write as soon as they
got the money.
Bishop Oyedepo: Well, if it’s true, it still follows that one bad apple
does not spoil all the apples on a tree. The tree of God is big with
many branches.
Dr. Damages: Of course. Now, another anointed man of God was
involved in arms smuggle scandal. How does that make you feel?
Bishop Oyedepo: That one I know of. I don’t know if I will
characterize what happened the way you just did.
Dr. Damages: At least we can confirm that his private jet, one that
he acquired to do urgent works of God that could be delayed if he
uses commercial airline, was involved.
Bishop Oyedepo: You see, I don’t rent out my jet. The problem is
that some of my brothers in the Lord who cannot afford a jet go
and buy one because they heard that Bishop Oyedepo bought one.
Next, they will be renting it out to make ends meet. I don’t do such
a thing. I don’t even let my senior pastors borrow my jet, unless
the senior pastor is my wife, my sons or my brother. That’s it.
Dr. Damages: You’ve been married for 32 years to one woman.
You’ve called your meeting a divine selection. Can a marriage that
is divinely selected fail? And if it does, who is to be blamed? The
man or the woman? Or could God be blamed?
Bishop Oyedepo: It depends on who the man or the woman is and
why the marriage failed. If a man, for instance, cooks his hair with
poisonous chemicals just to make it look foreign, it is a sign that
he is compensating, or should I say, overcompensating for
something. If he says that masturbation is not a sin, definitely, he
must be into some kinky stuff. Having said that, it cannot be God’s
fault if a marriage fails. Failure does not nullify divineness.
Dr. Damages: What if the marriage is that of an anointed man of
God?
Bishop Oyedepo: Again, I will refer you to Mathew 7:1: Do not
judge, or you, too, will be judged.
Dr. Damages: Sixty years of life. That’s 8 years more than the life
expectancy of a Nigerian male. Where do you see the Bishop David
Oyedepo’s brand in another 60 years?
Bishop Oyedepo: I don’t know what you mean by Bishop David
Oyedepo’s brand.
Dr. Damages: I mean, the Winners’ Chapel church and all the
businesses around it, including the universities, the printing press,
the bakery, the micro-finance bank, everything.
Bishop Oyedepo: The work of God will continue until our Lord returns.
Bishop Oyedepo: The work of God will continue until our Lord returns.
Dr. Damages: Sixty-years from now, the Winners’ Chapel church
will not have you to provide leadership.
Bishop Oyedepo: (smiles) You never know. It’s God who decides.
Dr. Damages: I’m sure you’ve seen those who get to reach the age
of 100, how they already look like ghosts. Looking at them, I don’t
think you want to reach 120 years.
Bishop Oyedepo: Abraham died at 175; Jacob at 114; Job was 140
years when he died. So, you can never say.
Dr. Damages: Ok. But let us assume that your empire does not have you around. Do you have a succession plan?
Dr. Damages: Ok. But let us assume that your empire does not have you around. Do you have a succession plan?
Bishop Oyedepo: I have my brother there. He’s heading one of our
important branches - the one in Abuja. I have my two sons. They
are both pastors at our strategic branches - one is in London and
the other is in South Africa. My wife is there, too. So, without me,
the work of God will go on.
Dr. Damages: Why is it that only your family members are at
strategic places in the church? Is it possible that the next head of
your church, the person who will inherit your private jet and all the
perks of being the Bishop, will not be related to David Oyedepo?
Bishop Oyedepo: You see, God works in mysterious ways. Who
are we to question God? The truth is that all my pastors are
related to me. They are all my sons and daughters. That’s why
they affectionately call me, Papa. They may not serve in London or
Abuja or New York, but they serve the Lord nevertheless.
Dr. Damages: Your mentor, Archbishop Benson Idahosa, died on
March 12, 1998. Since his death, his church has dwindled. It is not
what it used to be when he was alive. And the same thing could be
said about other indigenous churches - once the founder dies, it
begins to crumble. What does Winners’ Chapel have in place to
stop such a fate?
Bishop Oyedepo: That is not our portion.
Dr. Damages: No, I don’t wish it on you. But we both know that if
wishes were horses, everyone would ride. So, we have to be
practical here. What have you put in place to avoid that fate?
Bishop Oyedepo: I hope you don’t expect me to tell you what we
have in place?
Dr. Damages: Why not?
Bishop Oyedepo: It’s a trade secret.
Dr. Damages: Idahosa’s church and university are being managed
by his son and wife. Is your succession plan different?
Bishop Oyedepo: I said I am not going to reveal our trade secrets.
Dr. Damages: Ok. That’s fair. When all those who knew Idahosa
and saw him preach die off, do you think that his church will still
be standing?
Bishop Oyedepo: I don’t know what line of questioning is this.
What are you getting at?
Dr. Damages: Can you name any indigenous church that has
outlived those who saw the founder preach?
Bishop Oyedepo: Even if Idahosa’s church migrates and is
embedded into another church 60 years after his death, his
university will still be there. That’s why he established it.
Dr. Damages: Talking about universities, you own two or three
universities?
Bishop Oyedepo: Two. The third one is under construction in
Calabar.
Dr. Damages: In defense of the high tuition in your universities,
you recently said that an average Nigerian spends N1 million naira
in loved one’s funeral. Where did you get that figure? Was it from
any social science research done by any of your universities?
Bishop Oyedepo: It is a well-known fact.
Dr. Damages: Is it the Nigerian earning minimum wage of
N16,000.00 a month that spends N1 million in a funeral or the top
1%? Even if you count another 10% or so in the middle-class who
make N75,000.00 to N100,000.00 a month who do not have the
means but try to copy the rich, they often borrow, mortgage land
and property to give their loved ones such a funeral. They do so
hoping to pay back from money realized from such funeral. It may
not be the best use of resources but that doesn’t translate into a
statement of fact that an average Nigerian spends N1 million in a
funeral. They do not give their loved ones a funeral every
semester or every year, the way parents pay million-naira school
fees at your universities. So, why don’t you come out straight and
say that your school is just for the rich and it doesn’t matter that
your poor church members who contributed to the building of the
university cannot afford to send their children to the university that
they “sowed the seed” of its building.
Bishop Oyedepo: I’ve said it before and I will say it again. I did
not borrow money from anyone to build the universities. I did not
ask for contributions. This fallacy that some poor people
contributed money for me to build my universities is just that - a
fallacy. My God is not a poor God. He answers the prayers of his
faithful servants. It may be a mysterious concept for those of you
who are of the world. But don’t let your blindness make you imply
what does not apply.
Dr. Damages: People say whatever they like about Catholic
Church but nobody questions the importance of Catholic Charities.
In some cities around the world they are the reason the homeless
have somewhere to put their heads at night; they are the reason
the mentally ill do not walk along the streets naked; they are the
reason disabled citizens are not risking their lives on traffic,
begging. When is Winners’ Chapel, the most successful church in
Africa, going to establish a charity of such magnitude to curb our
society of a major social challenge?
Bishop Oyedepo: You are asking too much of us. We are only one
church and we do what we can.
Dr. Damages: You’ve written over 70 books many of which are
bestsellers. Did you explore in any of your books something like
the social justice doctrines around the right of citizens to human
dignity, right to work, common good, charity and social justice?
The Catholic Church pursued such and by doing so contributed to
the liberation of Latin America from the grip of dictators and unfair
society?
Bishop Oyedepo: I don’t mix politics with preaching. I preach
about paradise and prosperity.
Dr. Damages: How can one attain paradise in a place with
precarious politics and social order?
Bishop Oyedepo: Your attitude determines your latitude. I teach
my followers a way to attain greater longitude and latitude,
irrespective of your aptitude or the altitude facing you.
Dr. Damages: Wow! Nice rhyme. I feel so humbletude.
Bishop Oyedepo: Thank you, but that’s the work of the Lord, not
me.
Dr. Damages: Praise the Lord. Ok, let’s move on. The church
leaders of the Martin Luther King days formed the Southern
Leadership Conference. Its aim was to harness the moral authority
and organizing power of black churches. Is the Christian
Association of Nigeria (CAN) anything like that in Nigeria today? If
not, why not?
Bishop Oyedepo: Like I said, I don’t mix politics with preaching.
Dr. Damages: But politicians frequent churches like yours. In fact,
church leaders are seen out and about with politicians. Some are
seen literally leading political leaders to Jerusalem. Does this
journey to Jerusalem also happen spiritually or are pastors being
used to get votes?
Bishop Oyedepo: Politicians are also our constituents. They are
also our sheep, some are our lost sheep. We, as shepherds, need
to tend to them, too.
Dr. Damages: In tending to your sheep, you sometimes lose your
cool, like when you slapped that lady in your church. Have you
done anything thing like that again?
Bishop Oyedepo: I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Dr. Damages: The video has been seen by over a million people on
youtube. Yet, your lawyer said in court that you didn’t slap
anybody. And you seem to be saying the same thing? Aren’t you
ashamed of that?
Bishop Oyedepo: That matter is behind us. If you don’t have any
more relevant questions to ask we should call it a day.
Dr. Damages: South African Archbishop, Desmond Tutu, recently
said that God is not a Christian. Do all people of all faiths have
equal chance to make it to heaven?
Bishop Oyedepo: If they do, why did I call my church Winners’?
There must be winners and losers. I choose to be a winner. And
winners make it to heaven. I will leave it at that.
Dr. Damages: Hmm, that’s food for thought, Bishop. Quite
insightful. Until now, I have never thought about why you live in
heaven and most of your congregation live in hell. Thank you. I’ll
now choose to be a winner.
Bishop Oyedepo: I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Dr. Damages: That’s fine, pastor, sorry, Bishop. Don’t worry about
it. Even Bernie Maddof didn’t know what I was talking about when
I mentioned that. Ok, one final question. This interview was
supposed to be held in London but you abruptly changed the
venue. What’s the reason behind the change?
Bishop Oyedepo: Why is that your problem? Isn’t your goal as a
journalist just to get an opportunity to interview me? You should
be satisfied with that and give the praises to whom it’s due.
Dr. Damages: Of course, I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.
It’s just that I’m worried that some people are saying that you
have been barred from getting into the UK because of some
questionable activities of your churches there.
Bishop Oyedepo: I think you have run out of sensible questions.
Dr. Damages: I think you’re right, pastor.
Bishop Oyedepo: It’s been nice talking to you.
Dr. Damages: I guess that’s a good place for us to stop. Thank
you, Bishop Oyedepo, for coming on our show. And happy
birthday. May 200 years equal one year. And please make note
that I’ll like to interview you again when you’re celebrating your
120 years. And, hopefully, I’ll have the opportunity to talk about
tithes, the different kinds of people who bring tithes to the church,
and if the church is a place that dirty money is laundered as some
people say.
Bishop Oyedepo: Thank you. Let’s hope you’re alive then.
Dr. Damages: Yes, let’s hope so, and hope that Jesus has not
come back yet. (To the audience) Give it up for Bishop Oyedepo,
everyone!
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